C&I Red Rock

Discussion in 'Map Submission' started by turtlelord66, Apr 25, 2017.

?

Should this map be added?

  1. Yes, I need to play this now!

    92.5%
  2. No, it needs improving (Give feedback for improvements please)

    7.5%
  1. MCFamerzism

    MCFamerzism The Bees Knees VIP

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    This map's quality is great, there's really no need for improvements, but the concept itself is the issue I have with it.

    I saw what @Essej2 and @ANonnyMouse said, and I agree.
    Sure, the community may want it, but there's gonna be a lot of players who won't be able to tell the difference, and that's where the problem lies.

    Most of the time, depending on how creative you are, it's possible to turn a generic theme into something larger than life, you could take this map, and do many things with it for example, have the vegetation overgrown, swallowing the whole thing, but still make it suitable for gameplay.
    You could also have it industrialized, factories, pipes etc. that are unused.
    Maybe even make a civilization out of it and create a aesthetic with the block palette for the exterior.

    There's a lot of opportunities with a theme like this, it's all about the execution, and the thought of plan before you make the map, but unfortunately, this just looks like a smaller carbon copy of an existing C&I map though.
    #21
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  2. Vaneskah

    Vaneskah V.I.BEE Ultimate Member

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    I don't play Cai so I won't pretend to know about gameplay but if it's ok with people, I just wanted to say I love the terrain of this map. Looks so clean and natural. So aesthetically speaking, it's very nice.
    #22
  3. turtlelord66

    turtlelord66 V.I.BEE Ultimate Member

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    I can see where you are coming from with this, which is why I didn't use the same palette that the other 2 western maps have, meaning if anything Red Rock is the easiest to tell apart from the other 2, as shown below.

    [​IMG]

    (Red Rock is the top one)

    Once again see above it looks completely different to the other two, it has different terrain, meaning different style of play will be needed to become good at playing this map. The only things similar are the tents / carts / huts as they were similar on both the current maps, and in the hub and game lobby. Regarding your suggested theme alterations, industrialized is kind of what Hoodoo includes just more like mines, the whole place has raised tracks going everywhere, but making it more modern or creating civilizations in it never really go well for C&I maps, all the popular maps rely on the terrain to make the map and not the buildings, especially with this theme. As for overgrown vegetation, its meant to be a dust bowl kind of scene so I didnt think too much above grown would be appropriate :c

    But again thank you for not just voting no and not saying why, and thank you for calling this one great quality c:

    ================================
    Also regarding size for anyone concerned it is too big, I agree with you it does look big through the screenshots, but the length base to base is 5s shorter than the most played map Blackhorse basin, and yes it is wide, but that is just to make up for the space lost in the length, if you look at Hoodoo you will see it is a circle, and a lot of it is open space, so that is very wide.
    #23
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  4. GreenComet_

    GreenComet_ V.I.BEE Emerald Member

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    I saw the title and I first thought it was referring to Dreamstone from Chrono Trigger, but I knew that wouldn't have been the case. I swear no one here knows what Chrono Trigger is
    This map looks beautiful! I sure hope they add it! @bexxer
    #24
  5. Janiro

    Janiro Talk of the Town Emerald Member

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    I just hope this gets added!
    #25
  6. Periks

    Periks Platypus Senior Moderator Team Nectar

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    the map itself is pretty well done, the terrain's amazing but as some other people have stated before, the theme's repetitive.
    I understand you used another pallette but the theme is too similar for me to like it.
    dont get me wrong tho, the map's cool! i just wish it wasnt so similar.

    im just not a fan of blackhorse basin or hoodoo so it might just be me lol, i know the community loves them for some reason so yeah, just my opinion.

    anyways, good job on this and good luck!
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
    #26
  7. Panwi

    Panwi Retired Pankerator || Music is love. ♫♥ Emerald Member

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    Starting off by saying: 10/10 map.

    So, if people are still doubting this map might not be good enough, let me point out a few things.

    I will not be going into aesthetics here because I no longer care about those things, eitherways, it is pleasing and simple. Size-wise, the map is not too big, the map is not too wide. Although it can SEEM to be as big as China (a map hardly any good players actually play at), it is around as big as Basin, and that is the ideal size of a CaI map. It has wide caves and that is good for both capturing and running as leader. There are lots of paths people can take from one side to the other, and as Turtle said, it takes 20 seconds from one base to the other if you go through the middle. Comparing to Blackhorse Basin, the time spent from base to base is smaller on this map, and that definitely helps people capture.

    As I have seen enough comments about this, let me talk about the theme of this map. I am very well aware that this map's theme is not so original, but what is the first thing that comes in mind when someone mentions "Cowboys and Indians"? Wild West, correct? If there is a new player to the game, one thing they might as well expect is some few Wild West themed maps, but out of the 16 CaI maps, only 2 of them are wild west themed (not counting Reindeer Basin, that isn't necessarily wild west themed). Hoodoo was added and that was it for wild west themed maps. And that was in early 2014. For those people who play CaI know VERY WELL that Basin and Hoodoo are the most loved and played maps, the reason for that should be really obvious... They are both wild west themed. Not only that, in my opinion, they are also extremely good because the two bases are NOT mirrored with each other. Grab Warehouse and Orbital for example. Both sides are the exact same, and that honestly makes the gameplay more 'disappointing'. For Red Rock here, it is the same as Basin and Hoodoo, so it gives the map another plus.

    Regarding the CaI community. This is exactly the map CaI has been needing, FOR YEARS. It is EXACTLY what the community wants added, ask any old players what type of map they would love to see added. Also, not to be rude, but it is us who will be playing on that map, not the building community as a whole, not the SG community. I am saying that because our opinions DO matter, we have experience. We know how the game works. We have our ideals. This map is pretty much my ideal, and I am sure, many other CaI player's ideal map as well. Also, no, I am not being biased so this map can be added, I am just pointing out facts. To add into that, everyone knows what happens when a not-so-good map is added, right? They are not played on, and if they are chosen, most people will just leave. If this was added and chosen, I HIGHLY doubt people would leave.

    Also, let me point out, isn't CaI in a high map demand? And this. http://prnt.sc/f0pl4d
    If there are maps needed for CaI and this map is exactly what the community is wishing for, not to mention this is extremely well built, then... Everyone knows what needs to be done next, correct?

    One more thing I want to point out. Turtle has asked me many times to go look at the map while he was building it. Not only to me, he asked all the people he has mentioned on the feedback part of his thread, all to know if his map was good enough for the game. He asked us because he wanted to make it the perfect map for the game, so we could ALL play it. This is effort. This is dedication. It is a bonus to show how much it matters. Take that into consideration before judging anything, not only for this case specifically, but for everything.

    Summarizing this: @b0xx3r just please add this map. It is perfect. Joe, thank you for making this map. (´ヮ`)
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  8. SirFurryWawa

    SirFurryWawa V.I.BEE Ultimate Member

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    Beautiful.
    Add it now.
    #28
  9. kwirky

    kwirky The Bees Knees Team Nectar Emerald Member

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    I really like the map!
    Things I like:
    • Did anyone else notice the biome changes? AMAZING!
    • Great layout! Not rotated 180 degrees or flipped in a direction. Very impressive and admirable!
    • Basically anything anybody already said about the map.
    However, there are just a few things I would change.
    • For one, there is fire near the spawns for either team. This could be extremely problematic because a leader can just die in the fire, respawn, turn invisible, and repeat. This is very abusable and I suggest that you either remove the fire completely or relocate it.
    • While the theme is fitting for the gamemode, there is nothing that particularly stands out about the map. Basin, for example, has the giant bridge which makes it easily recognizable. Hoodoo has the motif with the rails being carried on throughout the build to give it cohesion. However, not much is especially prominent in this map. I suppose the arches give it some character, but something more direct would be a very good addition. The tepees, carts, cacti, dead leaves, etc. have all been used in previous maps. Moreover, there are a lot of good elements but they aren't connected in a way that makes the map come together effectively.
    Great map! Good luck, and I hope to be able to play it in the future, especially considering that CAI hasn't had a new map since Temple.
    #29
  10. LoudMusic

    LoudMusic V.I.BEE VIP

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    Was busy but gave this a brief glance. Coming back to review the post now, I'm finding myself feeling pleasantly refreshed by this map. Looks great and offers plenty that other maps have not. Based on player reviews, you seem to have found a nice balance between different sides. Kudos to you! Hope I can play this one day, looks like a keeper to me.
    #30
  11. briqht

    briqht Talk of the Town Ultimate Member

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    Wow. What an essay! Planning on staying?


    I agree, just saying. I want the map added and I'm sure many others can agree with me, it'd be great to play on.
    #31
  12. turtlelord66

    turtlelord66 V.I.BEE Ultimate Member

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    Regarding the fire, fire can be put out plus it takes ages for people to die by fire and can be capped in that time.
    As for the features, yes I understand what you mean, I guess I was hoping the landscape would be enough to make it stand out from the others, considering this uses predominantly orange clay and red sand, where as the others use hardened clay and normal sand, and the arches as you said. But since I'm a lot better at terraforming than doing buildings I just went with what I knew xd, but thanks for the feedback and the nice comments c:

    Edit - and thank you for noticing the biome change around the lake xD
    #32
  13. FamousCanadian

    FamousCanadian Talk of the Town Ultimate Member

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    Add it!!! -Lucahh
    #33
  14. turtlelord66

    turtlelord66 V.I.BEE Ultimate Member

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    Just wondered what @Periks @spherefs @cjeich found funny about this? She makes very good points and unless I missed a joke I didn't find it funny?
    #34
  15. cjeich

    cjeich Team Nectar Architect Team Nectar

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    Well, I cannot speak for @Periks or @spherefs , but for me personally I did find parts of it funny. This is not a personal attack or anything negative (which it seems to me that that is how it was received).

    and
    I found this funny simply because I feel this map is very similar (as others have said before me) to two other maps, Blackhorse Basin and HooDoo. Not just in theme but also in aesthetic. Yes, I see that the palette is different, but it is still overall a very similar map and I believe that this was done purposefully.

    I think your map is visually appealing, and for the most part would provide good gameplay, but I strongly feel the gameplay would be nearly identical to two maps that are already added, and picked nearly every time there are high point players present. I also found this funny because it's these same players who almost always leave the game immediately if the maps are not chosen.

    Personally, as someone who plays CAI occasionally (thought not very much because I don't prefer to play a game that 80% of the people leave right away due to the map that is chosen or right when they're about to be captured), I do not want to play the same map (or same style of map) over and over again. If the CAI community chooses to do so, that is their own choice and they are of course allowed to have and express their opinions.

    I want to reiterate again that my rating was not a personal attack on you or @Panwi and I wish you luck in getting your map added!
    #35
  16. turtlelord66

    turtlelord66 V.I.BEE Ultimate Member

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    Sorry yes at first I assumed it was more of a personal attack, I see where you are coming from, and I don't understand why some people only play basin and hoodoo, yes I don't play every map but that's because in my opinion some of them really are not good for C&I, but I will happily play most. The reason the gameplay on this map is similar to basin and hoodoo (both have very different play styles by the way, just because they have the same theme does not make them the same gameplay) is because I believe they both have very good aspects of the game, both completely different so I tried to incorporate both in this map. It will not play the same either basin nor hoodoo, even though it may have the same theme, the theme doesn't always go with how it plays.

    I hope people can start to see past the theme, yes it should be taken into account but it shouldn't be the main thing that is focused on, and it definitely isn't automatically the same as the other maps with the same theme.

    But thank you for explaining c:
    #36
  17. Mitka

    Mitka Talk of the Town

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    It looks awesome! :)
    #37
  18. Diamants

    Diamants The Bees Knees

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    I'm personally in love with this map, it looks so beautiful! I hope it gets accepted c:
    #38
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  19. briqht

    briqht Talk of the Town Ultimate Member

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    Since I do now have some more time, I would also like to actually post on this thread and get my opinion out. I do see where many of the previous stated points are coming from as this map MAY blend in with the others, but I also see it as being quite different. I can see the better of both sides. Currently, Wild West Themed maps are really whats popular in C&I; especially among those players with higher point counts, but I also personally know some players with lower point counts who prefer Wild West based maps. As Panwi was saying, the opinion matters primarily on those who will play the map consistently rather than one of the other Hive Communities who will play the game and map directly, once in a blue moon. The map supplies C&I players with area to PvP, large caves for the leader to run around in and escape the opposing team, 20 seconds from plate to plate for capturing, and overall just has a very nice look to it. Thank you, @turtlelord66 for putting so much time & dedication into this map, along with those who gave feedback and who had tested it out. I would love to see Red Rock in C&I and let the Community try it out entirely for themselves.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
    #39
  20. WeebHazzy

    WeebHazzy Famous Emerald Member

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    It's so cool to see you all grown up doing amazing terrain and builds :') still not as good as me duh but still amazing job from you n caro
    #40
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